Talk:Replace

Gnomish Experimenter

It seems to me that Gnomish Experimenter replaces a card in hand exactly like Golden Monkey does: thus, I think they should be both included in the same page and have the same tag ("Replace effect", or "Transform effect", or both).

Personally, I will tag them both only as "Replace effects", and leave the "Transform" tag for effects affecting minions on board (and maybe, in addition to the existing "Modify Hero Power" tag, create also a "Hero replacement" tag for effects - Lord Jaraxxus and Majordomo Executus - that "transform" heroes in play).

Elekim (talk) 09:07, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm definitely open to this. I would like to know what's going on behind the scenes for these effects, though, and if there's any differences in their mechanics. Any info, User:Patashu? The original tags are based on the wording of the cards themselves. The distinction between transform and replace seems sound, although I'm always going to follow the wording until I have a reason not to.

"Replace hero" is a fine idea for an ability - I nearly created this a while ago, along with "Replace Hero Power". Recent improvements to our card listing capabilities make these tags viable additions to our list of options. -- Taohinton (talk) 00:01, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

If you want the technical perspective, 'replace a card in hand' and 'transform a minion in play' are different effects. We know because if we target a minion with Recombobulator, but bounce the minion to our hand before the Battlecry resolves, it will create an effect in hand that will cause the opponent to hang. (Demonstrated in Wrong Zone Battlecries and Spells #1, has been recently re-tested and still hangs ) If they were the same effect (just with different zones) you wouldn't have a hang. --Patashu (talk) 01:00, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I was actually asking about Gnomish Experimenter vs Golden Monkey - are they the same mechanic under the hood? Although I suppose it seems reasonable enough to group them together regardless. -- Taohinton (talk) 01:17, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

While we're on the subject of replacement mechanisms, for golden card purposes it seems Justicar Trueheart behaves as though she is transforming the Hero Power, while all other such effects act as though the Hero Power is being replaced outright. Is the mechanism of Trueheart any different from eg Shadowform (ie is it scripted as a transform instead of a replace), or is the golden behaviour a specific feature? That said, does a golden Gnomish Experimenter (or Renounce Darkness) replace regular cards with golden cards? Does a regular Experimenter replace golden cards with regular cards?

Poking User:Patashu again since he might know. -- Taohinton (talk) 05:38, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Talked in #hearthsim about it.

jleclanche says:

<@jleclanche> Patashu: "transform" means the same thing as "replace". gnomish, monkey etc all use transform. <@jleclanche> Patashu: the literal definition of morph is: set the targeted entity aside, create a new one to replace it with. move that entity in the exact position of the old one. <@jleclanche> Patashu: this COULD be used for heroes/hero powers, however the key difference is morph does NOT move the old entity to the graveyard, it sets it aside <@jleclanche> Patashu: i havent tested it but replacing the hero power/hero does not necessarily mean morph <@jleclanche> i know jaraxxus is morph for example <@jleclanche> but i dont know if majordomo is morph

And culinko says:

"if your hero power is gold but your justicar is regular, you will get regular hero power. same for sir finley and shadowform." (whick implies it's replace not transform) + "i really have no idea what is different with replace/transform but isn't it incorrect to say that the things are different because of the hang? isn't the hang caused by incorrect animations"

Hope this helps. --Patashu (talk) 22:10, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. Things aren't as clear as I'd like, but it seems for now we might as well make the battlefield ones 'transform' and all the others 'replace'. Re: Justicar, apparently regular Justicar does make upgrade golden Hero Powers into golden upgraded Hero Powers - at least according to https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/3j4efq/non_golden_justicar_do_you_get_a_non_golden/ and similar. But, Shadowform and Finley don't; hence the question. It seems like she might transform not replace (since transform keeps the golden status either way round, like her effect does), but I'd need more evidence to label it as such.

This might come up again in the future if we get some really gnarly cards that call back "your previous Hero Power" or such from the graveyard, but for the meanwhile this should be comprehensible and consistent enough, and Justicar will just have to be labelled as an exception. -- Taohinton (talk) 22:19, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Ama-Zerus Ama-Zerus

Well, not even a month before this came back up again. Shifter Zerus is another in-hand transform effect. It says it transforms, but do we tag it as a transform or a replace? Is it practical to keep naming these replace effects, as the number of "in-hand transform" effects slowly increases?

With another 250 or so cards coming in the next 7-8 months, my feeling is that we should define transform as a minion-only effect (mostly in-battlefield) while replace can refer to any type of card, as well as Hero Powers and heroes. There seems to be no practical difference, but 'transforming' a spell doesn't feel right, and this also matches the card text, which is nice, and preferable. -- Taohinton (talk) 07:22, 19 April 2016 (UTC)